You can try in the ways you have never tried before.

About the second 'try', is it intransitive as the first one, or transitive?

Well, hello, Taka! Long time no see.

I think try is the same in both parts of the sentence.

But I have to confess something. I've always had a problem understanding why try can be considered both a transitive and an intransitive verb. Even though its direct object doesn't have to be mentioned all the time, I think it's clear to the listener or reader that there is definitely a direct object involved. When you say I tried, we understand you mean you tried something or you tried to do something. So how this can be labeled an intransitive verb is beyond me.

It's not like the verb rise, which is clearly intransitive since it cannot take a direct object. When we say The sun rises, we're not thinking anything but that. But in the following, we all know there's something more after try even though it's not stated:

A: Have you figured out that algebra problem?
B: I've tried. I just can't get it.

Obviously Speaker B is really saying I've tried to figure it out. I just thought I'd throw this into the mix. It's one of those areas of grammar I myself find debatable.

How have you been, Richard? I remember you announced your retirement here, but it seems that you've made a complete comeback, which is nice.

So, what about this one?

We human beings can create in the ways we have never created before.

Do you think the second 'create' is intransitive as the first one as well?

Thanks, my friend.

Yep, I feel the same way about create in two positions here as I do about try -- and I feel the same way about create as an intransitive verb as I do about try! I mean, create what??

So you don't think these make sense?

You can try in the ways which you have never tried before.

We human beings can create in the ways which we have never created before.

Sure they make sense. But I'm puzzled. What does introducing a relative clause have to do with the basic idea of whether or not try and create are transitive or intransitive verbs? I'm confused.

By the way, Taka, it's more natural not to use the in the phrase in ways which ...

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But I'm puzzled. What does introducing a relative clause have to do with the basic idea of whether or not try and create are transitive or intransitive verbs? I'm confused.

Sorry about the confusion. Let me explain.

The second verbs in these sentences are transitive:

・You can try (in) the ways which you have never tried before.
・We human beings can create (in) the ways which we have never created before.

because they are:

・You can try in the ways+You have never tried such ways before.→You can try (in) the ways which you have never tried before.

・We human beings can create in the ways +We have never created such ways before.→We human beings can create (in) the ways which we have never created before.

And these objectival relative pronouns are omissible:

・You can try in the ways you have never tried before.
・We human beings can create in the ways we have never created before.

However, these second verbs are intransitive:

・You can try (in) the ways in which you have never tried before.
・We human beings can create (in) the ways in which we have never created before.

because these are:

・You can try in the ways+You have never tried in such ways before.→You can try (in) the ways in which you have never tried before.

・We human beings can create in the ways +We have never created in such ways before.→We human beings can create (in) the ways in which we have never created before.

And these the parts in bold are omissible:

・You can try (in) the ways you have never tried before.
・We human beings can create (in) the ways we have never created before.

Now I'm wondering if it's ambiguous whether these second verbs are transitive or intransitive, and if it's not, I'd like to know a sound reason why.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Taka,

Hmm . . . I think the first part of your discussion was about the first verbs, not the second, right?

Anyway, Taka, I am very impressed with the thinking you put into this analysis of those sentences and the time you took to write it all down. Bravo!

I see your points of view and really can't disagree with anything because of the way you've stated your way of looking at how those verbs are operating in these sentences. Moreover, I don't see any ambiguity, the way you presented your argument, and I really have nothing more I can add to this discussion.

One last thought: You and I undoubtedly come from different schools of thought. You, on the one hand, seem to thoroughly enjoy dissecting language to find its intricacies as if it were a living creature with a circulatory system and a nervous system.

I, on the other hand, am more wholistic in my approach to language teaching and language learning, and find that when people can bring themselves to "let go" and just accept the patterns of a language and use those patterns the way native speakers do, they tend to learn another language more easily and fluently.

I think it's good that there are people who can be found in both camps, however. It keeps things interesting, to say the least.

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I think the first part of your discussion was about the first verbs, not the second, right?

Well, I actually said:

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About the second 'try', is it intransitive as the first one, or transitive?

but anyway, thank you, Richard.

Rachel, anything more to say?

Hello, Taka:

As much as I respect my esteemed colleague Richard's opinion, I do disagree with him here. In fact, Richard and I discussed this very topic by phone two days ago. I see his point, but I see it differently.

I think that 'try' can be both transitive and intransitive. In your sentences, Taka, in both instances, they have intransitive meanings.

Simply put, it's easy to see 'try' as a transitive verb. As an intransitive verb, it is certainly used less often, but it does exist. I just made up this example:

She's not very successful, but she's trying [as opposed to relaxing, for instance].

Now, Richard believes that with 'try' there is always an ellipsis: try what? -- try to do what?
That's only slightly different from my idea that 'try' is itself a complete activity.

Here are two examples from the New York Times:

• It hurts when you're really trying and not getting it done. It hurts the pride for all of us." Another Homer for Daulton ...

Not that the force isn't trying, and having some success. In fact, with the notable exception of rape, which is up 14 percent from this time .

The three online dictionaries I’ve consulted give ‘try’ as both transitive and intransitive. Here’s the entry from the Merriam-Webster Unabridged:

intransitive verb
…
2 : to make an attempt to achieve something or to carry out some action trying harder -- Management Behavior & Foreman Attitude> try for a good-night kiss -- Lane Kauffmann> -- often used with and and a following verb try and carry them with us on policy -- Hugh Gaitskell>
_______

‘Create,’ too, can be intransitive, in the same sense as ‘try’ can be. However, of my three usual online dictionaries, only the Merriam-Webster enters ‘create’ as intransitive as well as transitive. Here is that entry:

• 1 : to make or bring into existence something new (as something of an imaginative or artistic character) : INVENT create>

I was not able to find, in a ten-minute search, even one example of ‘create’ used intransitively in the New York Times. However, Taka, I think your examples of ‘create’ are indeed intransitive.

I'm such a maverick, I guess. LOL

My question led to the discussion over the phone. Man, sorry about the trouble.

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‘Create,’ too, can be intransitive, in the same sense as ‘try’ can be. However, of my three usual online dictionaries, only the Merriam-Webster enters ‘create’ as intransitive as well as transitive.

I was not able to find, in a ten-minute search, even one example of ‘create’ used intransitively in the New York Times. However, Taka, I think your examples of ‘create’ are indeed intransitive.

Yes. I had found that the intransitive 'create' was quite rare, as you also found out.

So what the reason you believe that the second 'create' in the sentence in question is intransitive when the intransitive one is so rare, Rachel?

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I'm such a maverick, I guess. LOL Wink

A much wiser maverick than the winking one!

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So what the reason you believe that the second 'create' in the sentence in question is intransitive when the intransitive one is so rare, Rachel?

The meaning is that 'create' here just means to be creative, as opposed to being non-creative.

I invented a couple of sentences, which were not easy to do. But then, I like to create:

They always stay between the lines; they never create.

His mind never relaxes. He never relaxes. His mind is always creating. It never shuts down.

That's what I call 'a sound reason'!

Thanks, Rachel!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Taka,

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My question led to the discussion over the phone. Man, sorry about the trouble.

This is no trouble! It is a pleasure to talk to Richard, and we do talk on the phone fairly frequently.