Is it possible to use "more perfect" when describing an absolute state?

Many people will say no, regarding "perfect" as a non-gradable adjective.

However, many people, including me, think it's OK to say "more perfect.'

We Amereicans have it in one of our original documents. It's in the preamble to the constitution of the United States:

We, the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
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So, yes, it really is all right to use 'more perfect,'

Interesting that we are discussing this important American document today, on the day before our own Independence Day

I couldn't have expected a more perfect answer and example, Rachel. :-)

Thanks.

You're welcome, MikeyC. And let me take this opportunity to thank YOU for your thought-provoking questions and comments, and your interest in the Grammar Exchange.

Love it!

Not all Americans are so loving of their Constitution as Rachel, to forsake consecrated grammar rules for its sake:-)

This writer says:

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"[The US Constitution] should read 'to form a more nearly perfect Union'"

George Miller, "On Legal Style," 43 Ky. L.J. 235 , 246 (1955)
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This message has been edited. Last edited by: Marius Hancu,

Just several samples of rules valid for centuries now:

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Problems and Principles of Correct English: Grammar, Punctuation, Rhetorical ...‎
by Sherwin Cody - English language - 1912 - 128 pages

What is perfect is absolutely perfect- and cannot be more perfect. Something may
be more nearly perfect, however, more nearly complete, more nearly circular ...
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When Bad Grammar Happens to Good People: How to Avoid Common Errors in English‎ - Page 136
by Ann Batko, Edward W Rosenheim, Jr. - Business & Economics - 2004 - 255 pages

More Perfect Don't Say: This date was more perfect than most. ... The way we
chose to correct the example sentence, His patience is not infinite
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Booher's Rules of Business Grammar: 101 Fast and Easy Ways to Correct the ...‎ - Page 104
by Dianna Booher - Business & Economics - 2008 - 320 pages

To insist that something is more unique, more perfect, almost surrounded, or the
most square of the group shows a misunderstanding of the original word.
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A Progressive Grammar of the English Tongue: Based on the Results of Modern‎ - Page 44
by William Swinton - History - 2008 - 224 pages

However, we can generally avoid such comparisons. In place of saying 'more
perfect,' say 'more nearly perfect;'
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Webster's New World English Grammar Handbook‎ - Page 90
by Kate Shoup, Gordon Loberger, Ph.D. - Language Arts & Disciplines - 2009 - 408 pages

For instance, "more perfect" means something similar to "nearer to a state of
perfection," a meaning clearly intended by the writers of the Constitution of
...
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Glad to see there are recent references among them.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Marius Hancu,

You are funny, Jerry! But, I do believe that ‘more perfect’ can be. If something is already perfect, at the maximum perfection it can be in a certain configuration at a certain time, with the change of configuration or time, it can be even more perfect.

Let’s say that Jenny, for example, was a perfect, perfect baby. She grew up a little and got even better as she became a child. So she was even a more perfect child that she had been a baby.

Some of us can’t quite accept the proscription against grading adjectives like perfect and unique.. However, Quirk* states this:

• ‘…the acceptability of the modifiers [more, very]with these intensifying adjectives also depends on the noun. If the noun is abstract and derived from a verb, it seems more acceptable to modify the adjective by more or very….
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In ‘a more perfect union,’ I think that the idea of ‘union’ is abstract enough. But even a concrete noun like ‘baby’ or ‘child’ seems to work in my example sentence.

The American Heritage Dictionary** has a usage note:

• USAGE NOTE Some people maintain that perfect is an absolute term like chief and prime, and therefore cannot be modified by more, quite, relatively, and other qualifiers of degree. But the qualification of perfect has many reputable precedents (most notably in the preamble to the U.S. Constitution in the phrase “in order to form a more perfect Union”). By the same token, perfect often means “ideal for the purposes,” as in There could be no more perfect spot for the picnic, where modification by degree makes perfect sense. See Usage Notes at absolute, equal, unique.

Examples from the New York Times:

• At which point Pup suddenly decided that it would be even more perfect if they up-anchored and moved across the way to a different cove. ...

• And finally, the experience has made me realize how special life is and how to be humble. I could not have asked for a more perfect family or upbringing that I was and continue
to be blessed with having.

• At first glance, perhaps no line item in the nearly $900 billion stimulus program under consideration on Capitol Hill would seem to offer a more perfect way to jump-start the economy than the billions pegged to expand broadband Internet service to rural and underserved areas.



Examples from the BBC site:

• They are again produced for the BBC by Yellow Bird, Left Bank Pictures, .... nor could we hope for a more perfect leading man than Kenneth Branagh”, ...

• The BBC today announced that Matt Smith has been cast in the role of ... there is no one more perfect than him to be taking the TARDIS to ...

• The goal of the programming, according to BBC officials, was to provide ... Orwell's position at the Tribune could not have been more perfect for him. ...
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In summary, while very often adjectives like ‘perfect’ and ‘unique’ are used in a non-gradable or absolute sense, they all can, at times, be used as gradable adjectives, and be modified by words like ‘very.’

Here is an interesting thread on this topic from the Grammar Exchange: http://thegrammarexchange.info...021083382#3021083382
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* A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language, by Quirk et al. Longman 1985
** The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Lanugage, Fourth Edition. Houghton Mifflin Company 2007

I said my piece and I think we can agree to disagree, Rachel.

quote:

Not all Americans are so loving of their Constitution as Rachel, to forsake consecrated grammar rules for its sake:-)

Could you please explain the term "consecrated grammar rules"? Who were they consecrated by?

I'll go with Rachel's take on this. If we can have "absolutely perfect", why not "more perfect?

Thanks, all.

quote:

If we can have "absolutely perfect", why not "more perfect?

That does not entirely follow; "absolutely" in "a.p." emphasises the fact that something is "perfect", not the degree of perfection.

MrP

Can degree not be emphasis?

Clearly not, in the case of "perfect", if "perfect" is non-gradable (which is the point in question, if I understand the objections to "more perfect" correctly).

To put it another way: if degree may be used for emphasis in cases where the adjective is gradable, it does not necessarily follow that in cases where the adjective is non-gradable the emphasis relates to degree.

MrP

quote:

To put it another way: if degree may be used for emphasis in cases where the adjective is gradable, it does not necessarily follow that in cases where the adjective is non-gradable the emphasis relates to degree.

So you also feel that "perfect" is non-gradable, do you?

That would depend on the context. In the Paradiso of Dante, for instance, we find degrees of perfection. A less perfect circle, on the other hand, would no longer be a circle.

MrP

This message has been edited. Last edited by: MrPedantic,

quote:

That would depend on the context. In the Paradiso of Dante, for instance, we find degrees of perfection. A less perfect circle, on the other hand, would no longer be a circle.

I imagine anything less than a circle would not be a circle, so what's a perfect circle?

Anyone here understand Mr P's last post?

quote:

what's a perfect circle?

"A perfect circle" = an occasionally useful tautology.

"A less/more perfect circle" = a contradiction in terms.

quote:

Anyone here understand Mr P's last post?

The Perfect Circle...

MrP

This message has been edited. Last edited by: MrPedantic,

Almost any non-gradable adjective can be made gradable in certain contexts.

'Perfect' can certainly be gradable. Please see the attachment.

PERFECT_and_IMPERFECT_CIRCLES.doc (64 KB, 5 downloads)