"from way back" as an adverbial

Hi, Ray—As you probably already know, only (b) works; (a) doesn't work at all. You could revise (a) by saying, "They started living here way back."

As to why (b) works but (a) doesn't, I'm not inclined to use tense and aspect to explain it. I'd say that "way back" works like the name of a temporal location:

(b) John and I know each other from [way back].
(b') John and I know each other from [our college days / Oxford].

Thank you, David. Maybe we could run a little experiment on (a), replacing "back" with "our college days" and "Oxford," as you did above:

c. They live here from our (or more correctly, their)  college days.

d. They live here from Oxford.

Are (c) and (d) okay?

@raymondaliasapollyon posted:

c. They live here from our (or more correctly, their)  college days.

d. They live here from Oxford.

Are (c) and (d) okay?

No, they aren't okay. But you could say:

(c') They have lived here from their college days onwards.
(d') They have lived here from their Oxford days until now.

Thank you, David. I myself wouldn't say (a), (c) or (d), but I'm still wondering what makes (b) okay, common as it is. Is "from way back" as an adverbial limited to describing interpersonal relationships?

@raymondaliasapollyon posted:

Is "from way back" as an adverbial limited to describing interpersonal relationships?

Do you mean to exclude "be from way back" from consideration? Of any given antique, it seems to me that one could assert that it is from way back. This accords with some of the examples given in the O.E.D.'s definition:

2. Long ago. from way back: from long ago; since long ago; (in extended use) through and through.

1870   T. F. Vaill tr. Virgil Free & Independent Transl. of First & Fourth Bks. of Æneid 20   I dined and wined and toasted him from way back.

1889   ‘M. Twain’ Connecticut Yankee xxxi. 401   He thinks he's a Sheol of a farmer; thinks he's old Grayback from Wayback.

1892   ‘M. Twain’ Amer. Claimant 167   I tell you, he's an artist from way back!

1923   J. H. Cook Fifty Years on Old Frontier iii. 227   This occurred ‘way back’, when the Indians had no horses.

1948   Sporting Mirror 19 Nov. 6/2   Way back in September I said that Norwich City have got what it takes and would be a power this season.

1990   Flying May 121/1   This was back, way back, when the world was still flat.

2006   G. M. Eberhart Whole Libr. Handbk. IV. v. 346   Librarians are master networkers from way back.

2012   D. Park Light of Amsterdam xiv. 300   ‘What are you wearing?’ ‘It's a T-shirt from way back. I thought I'd give it an outing’.

Thank you for those quoted examples, which help to highlight the issue in hand:

1. This sentence "He thinks he's a Sheol of a farmer; thinks he's old Grayback from Wayback" does not present problems to learners if "from way back (or from Wayback here) is an adjectival modifying "Grayback." The same account goes for "he's an artist from way back!" "Librarians are master networkers from way back," and "It's a T-shirt from way back." There is no issue of tense incompatibility as the "from way back" functions adjectivally.

2. I dined and wined and toasted him from way back.

This one, cast in the past tense, accords with most learner's understanding if "from way back" indicates some time in the past. The other examples follow this pattern.

However,  sentence (b) feels incongruous as it is cast in the present tense and "from way back" is not an adjectival there. In other words, it does not belong to either of the above groups of examples.

b. John and I know each other from way back.

Ray, are you familiar with the expression "go way back," as in "We go way back"? If you go way back with someone, you know that person from way back; your acquaintance with him or her began during a time period deep in the past.  

@David, Moderator posted:

Ray, are you familiar with the expression "go way back," as in "We go way back"? If you go way back with someone, you know that person from way back; your acquaintance with him or her began during a time period deep in the past.  

Yes, I am. That expression happens to be one about interpersonal relationships too. (Of course, there are examples which behave like that but which are not about interpersonal relationships, such as "date back to" and "trace back to." I memorized such expressions without trying to analyze them.)

The following sounds odd, doesn't it?

John knows how to bake from way back.

@raymondaliasapollyon posted:

Yes, I do. That expression happens to be one about interpersonal relationships too. The following sounds odd, doesn't it?

John knows how to bake from way back.

Yes, it does sound odd. In fact, it sounds terrible. The following sounds less odd. Is it about an interpersonal relationship?

• John knows that cake recipe from way back.

@David, Moderator posted:

Yes, it does sound odd. In fact, it sounds terrible. The following sounds less odd. Is it about an interpersonal relationship?

• John knows that cake recipe from way back.

Maybe the marginal acceptability is due to the fact that the "from way back" could be an adjectival modifying "cake recipe" as it behaves in the first group of the OED examples? I'm not saying that your intended interpretation supports this analysis, but that the availability of this analysis makes the sentence less unacceptable.

We could try coming up with an example where the verb is in the present and there is no noun (phrase) modifiable by "from way back" to eliminate the interfering factor and see how compatible "from way back" is with present-tense verbs.

@raymondaliasapollyon posted:

Maybe the marginal acceptability is due to the fact that the "from way back" could be an adjectival modifying "cake recipe"? I'm not saying that your intended interpretation supports this analysis, but that the availability of this analysis makes the sentence less unacceptable.

I intend an adverbial parsing. It is from way back that he knows the recipe. (NOT: It is the cake recipe from way back that he knows.) I do not find the sentence unacceptable; nor do I see a need for an adjectival rescue.

Is it perfectly acceptable or somewhat iffy? If it's okay to some extent, could it be a case of personification like the "wouldn't" in "The car wouldn't start"?

Let's try using a that-clause, which resists personification, as the object of "know." Is the following okay?

John knows from way back that making a cake takes a lot of time.

@raymondaliasapollyon posted:

Is it perfectly acceptable or somewhat iffy? If it's okay to some extent,

Well, Ray, "from way back" is not an expression that I would ever use with the Queen of England if she were still alive and invited me to dine with her. The fact is that it is inescapably somewhat informal, no matter what the sentence, and informal expressions are known for not being good targets of prescriptivistic grammatical rigidity. If that's what you want, you're barking up the wrong tree.

@raymondaliasapollyon posted:

Let's try using a that-clause, which resists personification, as the object of "know." Is the following okay?

John knows from way back that making a cake takes a lot of time.

That sounds fine to me as a highly informal, loose way of saying that John learned a long time ago that baking a cake takes a lot of time.

@David, Moderator posted:

Well, Ray, "from way back" is not an expression that I would ever use with the Queen of England if she were still alive and invited me to dine with her. The fact is that it is inescapably somewhat informal, no matter what the sentence, and informal expressions are known for not being good targets of prescriptivistic grammatical rigidity. If that's what you want, you're barking up the wrong tree.

That sounds fine to me as a highly informal, loose way of saying that John learned a long time ago that baking a cake takes a lot of time.

Upthread you said the sentence ("John knows that cake recipe from way back.")  "sounds less odd." That makes me wonder if it is perfectly acceptable. My question is not about whether it's informal or  prescriptively correct .

Could "from way back" be used with other present-tense verbs than "know"?

@raymondaliasapollyon posted:

Upthread you said the sentence ("John knows that cake recipe from way back.")  "sounds less odd." That makes me wonder if it is perfectly acceptable.

I'd say that it's perfectly acceptable, totally informally. Does that help you?

@raymondaliasapollyon posted:

Could "from way back" be used with other present-tense verbs than "know"?

Well, it can be used with the present tense of "be." Is that not enough for you?

@David, Moderator posted:

I'd say that it's perfectly acceptable, totally informally. Does that help you?

Well, it can be used with the present tense of "be." Is that not enough for you?

Thank you. As long as there are sentences where "from way back" cannot be used, the learner may well wonder under what conditions a verb is compatible with "from way back." Is the following okay?

John understands from way back that it is difficult to master a language.

A factual generalization would be much appreciated.

@raymondaliasapollyon posted:

Is the following okay?

John understands from way back that it is difficult to master a language.

No. Again, you have shown that you have no problem blundering deliberately with the expression. I don't have a comprehensive instructional guide to offer you for using "from way back," but you have demonstrated that you are capable of using it except when you are deliberately creating bad examples. Whenever I offer you example types, you find ways to mess them up.