[I have never seen him that drunk] VS [I had never seen him that drunk]

@TaeBbongE posted:

As far as I understand,

B-1: I have never seen him that drunk implies

Now Person B is saying "I have never seen him that drunk by now (except for that night) (Now I have seen it once).

You have the right idea, TaeBbongE, though your paraphrase is ungrammatical.

@TaeBbongE posted:

B-2: I had never seen him that drunk implies

Now Person B is saying "I had never seen him that drunk by the past time before that night. (Then I saw him drunk that night for the first time.)

Yes, that's right, too. Then, that night, you saw him that drunk for the first time.

Good day~!

May I ask you about a correct paraphrase of B-1 ?

.

So far as I know, normally "have never P.P" means someone hasn't done something by now.

e.g.)

I have never been to Japan.

→ It means I have never been to Japan by now or before now.

.

However, in the case of B-1's context I don't think Person B has never seen him that drunk by now.

Rather I took the sentence's meaning like this.

Person B has never seen him that drunk except for "that night" by now or before now.

So now Person B has seen him that drunk once(?) or for the first time(?), because "that night" was already in the past time-line compare to "by now".

If I am mistaken, please correct me, please~~~

PS: Always thank you, David!

Hello again, TaeBbongE—I agree with you that "I have never been to Japan" is not a sentence that would suitably be used if the speaker had just been to Japan; however, he might use the sentence if he were in Japan at the time of speech.

Sometimes native speakers take their pick between the present perfect and the past perfect, depending on the perspective they wish to adopt. If I just heard a song for the first time, I can say either:

(a) I've never heard that song before.
(b) I'd never heard that song before.

Sentence (a) belongs to a perspective in which the hearing of the song seems present to consciousness, even if that experience has just passed; (b) belongs to a perspective in which the hearing of the song is distanced from now.

Dear David

Thanks so much!

I have a very simple question. (I am sorry to bother you.)

.

As far as I know, Have P.P implies "before" or "by now", but you only shows your sentences with "before". Am I wrong?

Because I have seen many times lots of sentences using "have  P.P" with "by now".

So can I also take your sentences like these?

(a) I've never heard that song before (or by now)