quote:
here's a rumour abroad that she intends to leave the company.
There was news abroad that a change was coming.

Yes, they are.

"That she intends to leave the company" is the noun clause that complements "rumour": "that a change was coming" is the noun clause that complements "news."

Rachel
To have appositives you'd need, IMO:

This rumour, that she intends to leave the company, is false.

This piece of news, that a change was coming, was confirmed.


You can take out any of the two parts in bolded, and still have a sentence with a clear subject. This is the mark of an appositive in a subject situation.

Even so, those would be cases of "weak apposition,"
p. 1320, Quirk, IMO, "as the appositives come from different syntactic classes".

Rachel?
Hi,
1)There is a belief That Women gossip more than men.
2)The Belief That Women gossip more than men is widespread.
3)The Belief is That Women gossip more than men.

Now, As i know 3 is a Subject complement; 2) is an appositive, 1) is just a noun clause('That' is used to join two different remarks; for Ican separate them into two sentences: Women gossip more than men.There is a widespread belief.)

Am i right?
And also,What is the difference between complement and appositive? Because they seem same.

Thanks.
quote:
here's a rumour abroad that she intends to leave the company.
There was news abroad that a change was coming.

The noun clauses used here are appositives. At least, Marcella Frank has the same opinion as mine:

appositive His belief that coffee grows in Brazil is correct.

Although we don't have commas there, the function is clearly appositive.
The reason for no commas is that these are essential appositives. Without them, meaning would be lost.

It's for non-essential appositives that we need commas. That means meaning will not be lost without the appositive part.

For example:

essential appositive:
The rumor that she's thinking of resigning is circulating all around the company.

non-essential appositive:
The rumor about her resigning, which I don't happen to believe, is circulating all around the company.
Well, I'll give it a shot, Soguksu.

First, your identifications of those three above are right.

Now, as for that difference . . .

A subject complement follows a linking verb (copula). It is normally a noun or adjective: That rumor is unbelievable.

An object complement follows a direct object and modifies it in some way. It, too, is normally a noun or adjective: That rumor made me upset.

An appositive can be a proper noun or a noun phrase, and as you've seen, it can be essential for understanding or non-essential for just adding extra information.

There you go, Soguksu. I hope that helps (and I hope I haven't left anything out). Wink
IMO,

/The Belief /that Women gossip more than men/ is widespread.

is not appositive.

You can't take out the first appositive ("The belief") and still have a comprehensible sentence.

Try that with Frank's example:

/His belief /that coffee grows in Brazil/ is correct.

and you won't have this problem.

The reason is: "widespread" collocates with "belief," but not with "that women gossip more".

In Frank's example, "correct" collocates with both appositives, thus no problems.

It's a matter of fundamental meaning, of semantics, at play.
I don't really think you could ever have that as a criterion for identifying an appositive, Jerry. We never take out the first part to check for appositives! If the criterion you offered worked, then you would also say the following sentence is not an appositive (while we know it is):

John, the president of his club, gave a speech.

because

The president of his club gave a speech.


You would also reject the following as an appositive:

He had only one desire--for his family to be in good health.

because

He had only for his family to be in good health.


-------------------------------
All examples are taken from Frank's Modern English
Mehrdad said:

quote:
I don't really think you could ever have that as a criterion for identifying an appositive, Jerry. We never take out the first part to check for appositives!


Oh, really? You think I invent criteria of my own?

This is something fundamental.

Check this:
-----
Grammarians vary in the freedom with which they apply the term 'apposition' even in the quite specific sense adopted here. Some have restricted it even more narrowly to cases where the following conditions are met:

(i) Each of the appositives can be separately omitted without affecting the acceptability of the sentence.

(ii) Each fulfills the same syntactic function in the resulting sentences.

(iii) It can be assumed that there is no difference between the original sentence and either of the resultant sentences in extralinguistic reference.

...

Apposition meeting these three conditions we term FULL APPOSITION.

17.66, p. 1302, Quirk, A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language, 1985
----
Now, this is what I call some clarity.

I am with "those grammarians" who have restricted the notion as per above. The reason? Look at the confusion we have on our hands just in this thread.

Perhaps you want to talk about PARTIAL APPOSITION? That's something else, and on p. 1303 of Quirk.

But those 3 criteria still stand to define what type of partial apposition we're dealing with.
I only take full appositives as appositives. This should have been clear to you from the previous post of mine.

As long Quirk says that there are grammarians out there doing it, I feel free to do it too. I, like them, don't like messy things.

At least, now Sogutsu will have 3 clear criteria for appositiveness:-)
Thanks for the quotation from Quirk, Jerry, but do you really think this changes anything?!

You earlier said:
quote:
IMO,

/The Belief /that Women gossip more than men/ is widespread.

is not appositive.


Now, based on what you yourself have quoted, you agree that the above sentence is a partial appositive (while not a full one). So how can you say it is NOT an appositive, while it is (a partial one). It is indeed still an appositive, but only the partial type. In other words, "partial appositives" are one type of appositives, so they ARE still appositives.

Thus, it's not my fault that you said "it is not appositive," instead of "it is not a full appositive" or "it is a partial appositive." You see?Smile
And, by the way, did you read the remaining parts in Quirk, Jerry?

On the other hand, we cannot exclude consideration of sequences which resemble such full apposition but nonetheless do not meet these three conditions entirely. If condition (i) alone is unfulfilled, the difference from full apposition is comparatively trivial. ...


It just concerns our case; only the first condition is not met.
Hi, Thank you all for your help....
The last one..
There is a possibility That He might be innocent. This is a noun clause, not an appositive,right?
The possibility that he might be innocent is considered now. This one is an appositive, not a noun clause, right?

Thanks

P.s: English is sometimes a very confusing language. Smile
Hi,
I read them all; but JerryS you say :
That The Belief that Women gossip more than men is widespread is not an appositive . But the book you mentioned before says It is an appositive(weak).


Then If that is an appositive(weak), Why this one below is a noun clause?

There is a possibility That He might be innocent. or
There is a doubt That she is guilty.

Thanks.

P.S:I'm examining the book,but have not come across anything related to my question.
quote:
The possibility that he might be innocent is considered now. This one is an appositive, not a noun clause, right

This -- the bolded letters -- is a noun clause, used as a subject complement.

By some descriptions, this is also an appositive.[b]

In my first sentence, there is an appositive. Can you identify it?
appositional constructions:
the likelihood that Joan will get married....(p1231, 1684)

the second one(appositive clause):
iii-the head of the noun phrase must be a general abstract noun such as
fact, idea, proposition, reply, remark, .
The belief that no one is bfallible is well-founded. (p1260,17.26)

And The last one is on p1305,17.70 ,which You should really check.
quote:
And The last one is on p1305,17.70 ,which You should really check.


Which sentence, please? That's a whole page.

Also, one again, why do you capitalize this way? I mean
"The" "You" in the above should not be capitalized. It's more difficult to read when one gets unexpected and unjustified capitalization in the reading stream.
quote:
The belief that no one is infallible is well-founded.

(p1260,17.26)


I can accept this as an appositive. If I take out the first appositive "The belief" what it remains is:

that no one is infallible is well-founded

which can be understood in the extreme, thus the first criterion (i) of Quirk listing is satisfied.
quote:
The question whether to confess or not troubled the girl.


p. 1305, Quirk.

This is clearly an appositive (and I'd say it is a full appositive):

/ The question / whether to confess or not / troubled the girl.

Criterion (i) of Quirk is satisfied:

/ The question / troubled the girl.

/ whether to confess or not / troubled the girl.

are both (to me) understandable sentences, with the bolded parts as subjects in each.
i really cannot understand the book says all of them are an appositive(it does not matter full or weak) , while you say no.
The point is:
While there is a belief That women gossip then men is a noun clause, that the belief that women gossip more then men is widespread is an appositive???

Could anyone please tell me the difference??? What i only want to know is this.

Thank you all for your help and patience.
quote:
the likelihood that Joan will get married....

(p1231, Quirk)

of course it is an incomplete sentence, but it is used as an appositive,Because Why it is an appositive is explained in the paragraph above it.


I don't see that and I don't see the complete sentence.

Show me the parts in apposition and we'll talk.

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