Hello Moderators. Could you please help me? A little explanation please.
Which choice has the perfect punctuation?
1- Walid - and that troublemaking friend of his- have arrived.
2- Walid - and that troublemaking friend of his- has arrived.
3- Walid - and that troublemaking friend of his have arrived.
4- Walid and that troublemaking friend of his- has arrived.
Thank you.
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@Ahmed Imam Attia posted:Hello Moderators. Could you please help me? A little explanation please.
Which choice has the perfect punctuation?
1- Walid - and that troublemaking friend of his- have arrived.
2- Walid - and that troublemaking friend of his- has arrived.
3- Walid - and that troublemaking friend of his have arrived.
4- Walid and that troublemaking friend of his- has arrived.
Hello, Ahmed Imam Attia—None of the choices is punctuated correctly. They are all incorrect. A dash is not the same thing as a hyphen. A hyphen looks like this (-) and a dash like this (—). A dash is over twice the length a hyphen.
You have used hyphens, not dashes, and they are all incorrect because you have tried to use the hyphens as if they were dashes. If you use the dash to set off the conjunct, you must use two. Either way, the verb needs to be plural:
(5) Walid and that troublemaking friend of his have arrived.
(6) Walid—and that troublemaking friend of his—have arrived.
(7) Walid has arrived, with that troublemaking friend of his.
Hi, David,
@David, Moderator posted:Hello, Ahmed Imam Attia—None of the choices is punctuated correctly. They are all incorrect. A dash is not the same thing as a hyphen. A hyphen looks like this (-) and a dash like this (—). A dash is over twice the length a hyphen.
You have used hyphens, not dashes, and they are all incorrect because you have tried to use the hyphens as if they were dashes. If you use the dash to set off the conjunct, you must use two. Either way, the verb needs to be plural:
(5) Walid and that troublemaking friend of his have arrived.
(6) Walid—and that troublemaking friend of his—have arrived.
(7) Walid has arrived, with that troublemaking friend of his.
I completely agree with you about the necessity of using 'dashes' here. However, I differ a little bit about the necessity of using a plural verb here. I think the author of this sentence, whoever he is, wants to use a singular verb depending on the rule that reads, "Words and phrases between dashes are not generally part of the subject." A similar example can be found here:
@ahmed_btm posted:I completely agree with you about the necessity of using 'dashes' here. However, I differ a little bit about the necessity of using a plural verb here. I think the author of this sentence, whoever he is, wants to use a singular verb depending on the rule that reads, "Words and phrases between dashes are not generally part of the subject." A similar example can be found here:
Hi, Ahmed—I disagree with that purported rule, which I don't believe exists. "And" is additive. Whether or not a pause occurs before the use of "and," the following noun phrase will, together with it, form a coordinate structure. Assuming the referent of each of the two noun phrases is perceived to exist separately from the other, the coordinate structure will be plural in number and ought therefore to take a plural verb. It is a compound sentence subject. I deem the use of the singular incorrect there, regarless of the rule that whomever you are quoting believes to exist.
Hi, David,
@David, Moderator posted:Hi, Ahmed—I disagree with that purported rule, which I don't believe exists. "And" is additive. Whether or not a pause occurs before the use of "and," the following noun phrase will, together with it, form a coordinate structure. Assuming the referent of each of the two noun phrases is perceived to exist separately from the other, the coordinate structure will be plural in number and ought therefore to take a plural verb. It is a compound sentence subject. I deem the use of the singular incorrect there, regarless of the rule that whomever you are quoting believes to exist.
Thanks a lot. Unfortunately, the source of this rule is a well-known book, called 'The Blue Book Of Grammar And Punctuation', eleventh edition.
https://books.google.com.eg/bo...0grammar&f=false
It is by 'Jane Straus' (I'm sure you have heard about her) and 'Lester Kaufman'. Interestingly, you will find that this is the first rule they mentioned under the usage of 'dashes'. Back to Egypt, I'm pretty sure that the model answer will go with 'has' because many of my friends depend on this book in their writings. I always appreciate your opinion. Thanks again for your time.
@ahmed_btm posted:Unfortunately, the source of this rule is a well-known book, called 'The Blue Book Of Grammar And Punctuation', eleventh edition.
https://books.google.com.eg/bo...0grammar&f=false
It is by 'Jane Straus' (I'm sure you have heard about her) and 'Lester Kaufman'. Interestingly, you will find that this is the first rule they mentioned under the usage of 'dashes'. Back to Egypt, I'm pretty sure that the model answer will go with 'has' because many of my friends depend on this book in their writings. I always appreciate your opinion.
Interesting. I wonder if Straus and Kaufman would consider the following ungrammatical sentences to be correct English:
Hi, David,
@David, Moderator posted:Interesting. I wonder if Straus and Kaufman would consider the following ungrammatical sentences to be correct English:
- *Both John—and Mary—is coming to the party.
- *John—and Mary—is both coming to the party.
Of course they wouldn't. The presence of 'both' requires a plural verb and it means that the speaker has no afterthoughts. That takes me to an important point. I think their rule could apply -and that's perhaps what they mean- when the sentence involves an afterthought between em dashes, commas or parentheses like this example:
So, what's important is not that there are em dashes, but that what is between them is regarded as an afterthought or a parenthetical, a kind of whispered aside in the course of formulating the sentence subject.
The problem is that dashes can also be used to emphasize what they set off. Unless there is some phrase like "to some extent," as in the Chicago example, to signal that it is a parenthetical, it is unclear that that is how it is intended.
In the Egyptian example that Ahmed Imam Attia has asked about, there is nothing that indicates that "and that troublemaking friend of his" is intended as an afterthought rather than an emphasized conjunct, which it appears to be.
If it is an emphasized conjunct, the addition of "both" will be possible within the predicate, and that addition will render the singular verb not just unnatural or unidiomatic, but totally ungrammatical.
(1a) Walid—and that troublemaking friend of his—have both arrived.
(1b) *Walid—and that troublemaking friend of his—has both arrived.
