That/,That

Hello, everyone,

Which one of the following is/are correct, and why or how?

1. Notice is hereby given that none shall trade with XYZ from this day onward.

2. Notice is hereby given, that none shall trade with XYZ from this day onward.

Thanks.

Original Post

Only  (1) is correct, Ahmad. The reason for this is that appositive clauses are never preceded by a comma. The clause is extraposed because it would be extremely awkward to find it forming part of a long subject in front position:

3. Notice that none shall trade with XYZ from this day onward is hereby given.

We therefore very much prefer your sentence (1) rather than (3). (2) is outright incorrect because of that wrong comma.

gustavocontributor posted:

(2) is outright incorrect because of that wrong comma.

Hi, Gustavo,

I also believed that was the case (although I didn't know the rule as clearly as you know it, and made it clear here), but it was only after I came across a similar expression that made me turn to the GE. In a Youtube documentary entitled In Search of History: Scotland Yard's Greatest Investigations, I saw that expression.

I am attaching a snapshot herewith. Scotland Yard

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ahmad posted:
I also believed that was the case (although I didn't know the rule as clearly as you know it, and made it clear here), but it was only after I came across a similar expression that made me turn to the GE. In a Youtube documentary entitled In Search of History: Scotland Yard's Greatest Investigations, I saw that expression.

Hi, Ahmad,

Punctuation is largely just a matter of convention, and conventions change over time. Historically, it was both common and acceptable to separate subject and predicate with a comma. Thus, the Second Amendment of the U.S. Constitution originally read: "A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Nowadays that punctuation is incorrect, and the sentence is instead written: "A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." I agree with Gustavo that there should not be a comma before the appositive clause in your example. It does not adhere to modern punctuation conventions, though I can't speak for Scotland.

Now, Ahmad, I have a question for you. I would like to learn how to add a picture to the body of a post, as you have done above. Could you please tell us what function you selected to do that. You say that it is a screenshot, so I'm assuming you uploaded it directly from your computer. I'd like to know why your photo attachment manifests in the post, whereas Ruifeng's just stayed at the bottom:

https://thegrammarexchange.inf...7#583123841567311407

Hi, David,

Thanks a lot for the historical note. Thanks also for asking me about the photo upload. This is how I did it:

venn-diagram-3

Once a picture/image has uploaded, an option saying: “Insert all photos and videos into post body (large size)” appears. Check/click that, and viola, it is done.

Thanks.

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ahmad posted:
Once a picture/image has uploaded, an option saying: “Insert all photos and videos into post body (large size)” appears. Check/click that, and viola, it is done.

Wonderful! Thank you, Ahmad. This is one of the first things that I've found I actually like about the new platform. On the old platform, I could only make pictures manifest in a post if they were already on the Internet. (Soon I may be able to upload syntax trees, which I've wanted to do for years now.) Below is a picture of Marlon Brando and Eva Marie Saint from On the Waterfront (1954). Cheers. ♣

pub

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davidmoderator posted:

Soon I may be able to upload syntax trees, which I've wanted to do for years now.

That would be just superb and immensely helpful. Thanks a lot, sir.

PS: By the way, it would be quite great if you could upload a picture of yours, preferably one with DocV (given he is your friend of yore). I believe a lot many of us feel that that be.

 

David is quite correct in saying that punctuation conventions change over time, as do other grammatical conventions, including spelling.  In fact, though, there were two different versions of the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution.  The one that was ratified by the states, and was approved by Thomas Jefferson, who was Secretary of State at the time, was:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

A different version was approved by Congress:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Neither version had a hyphen, and, as David points out, the three-comma version approved by Congress is nonsensical by today's standards.  Nevertheless, this is the version that we see in encyclopediae, textbooks, and other reference works.  More importantly, though, since no single version of the amendment was approved by both the Congress and the states, the amendment is technically invalid.

Not likely.  I'm notoriously camera-shy.  (They steal the soul, you know.)  I don't think my girlfriend of seventeen years, who died in February, ever even saw a photograph of me.  I only know of three that are in my possession, including the one on my passport and the one on my driver's license.  I'm not aware of any that exist of David and me together.

docvguestcontributor posted:

I don't think my girlfriend of seventeen years, who died in February, ever even saw a photograph of me.  

DocV,

I am sincerely sorry for the loss you have suffered. I have met similar fate and it took me four years to get my bearings.

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