the fact that...

Hi, Raymond,

@raymondaliasapollyon posted:

The following definition of "show me the money" is taken from the Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English:

Used to tell someone to give or pay you a lot of money, rather than just talk about the fact that they will give it to you

It seems to me that what the definition means to explain is that, when saying "show me the money," the intention of the speaker is to say:

- Give me/Pay me a lot of money.

rather than the more literal:

- Show me the money that you promised to give me/that you said you'd give me.

There is, therefore, no assumption on the part of the speaker that any amount of money will be given, but rather the imposition of a condition.

@Gustavo, Co-Moderator posted:

Hi, Raymond,

It seems to me that what the definition means to explain is that, when saying "show me the money," the intention of the speaker is to say:

- Give me/Pay me a lot of money.

rather than the more literal:

- Show me the money that you promised to give me/that you said you'd give me.

There is, therefore, no assumption on the part of the speaker that any amount of money will be given, but rather the imposition of a condition.

Thank you, Gustavo. Isn't the "fact" used loosely rather than strictly?

I think the definition literally says the following in the first POV:

"Give me/Pay me a lot of money. Don't just express the fact that you will give it to me."

The speaker of the sentence is expressly asking the other person not to express that fact. But by saying "fact," the speaker seems to believe it is a fact that the other person will give him or her the money.

However, the "fact" that they will give the money to the speaker is not necessarily a fact in scenarios where "show me the money" is used!

If you read the definition carefully , you'll find the phrase "rather than" switch the meaning of "the fact" to its opposite." 

Used to tell someone to give or pay you a lot of money, rather than just talk about the fact that they will give it to you.

It is understood to mean that "used to tell someone to give or pay you a lot of money, rather than THE LlTERAL INTERPRETATION of the fact that they will give it to you.  I wonder if my explanation is somewhat helpful to you.

@f6pafd posted:

If you read the definition carefully , you'll find the phrase "rather than" switch the meaning of "the fact" to its opposite."

Used to tell someone to give or pay you a lot of money, rather than just talk about the fact that they will give it to you.

It is understood to mean that "used to tell someone to give or pay you a lot of money, rather than THE LlTERAL INTERPRETATION of the fact that they will give it to you.  I wonder if my explanation is somewhat helpful to you.

I believe that the "rather than" negates "just talk about...," not "the fact that..."

Yes, you got it!

@raymondaliasapollyon posted:

I don't know if questions about meaning are allowed in this forum, but since semantics is considered part of the broader realm of grammar, I want to ask about the following use of "the fact that." If the question is unsuitable, feel free to delete it.

The following definition of "show me the money" is taken from the Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English:

Used to tell someone to give or pay you a lot of money, rather than just talk about the fact that they will give it to you

I'd like to know if this use of "the fact that" strikes natives as off in terms of presupposition.

I'd appreciate your help.

Hello, everyone—This is an interesting discussion. I do find the use of "the fact that" off in the definition provided. I should prefer the following revision:

• Used to tell someone to give or pay you a lot of money, rather than just talk about their giving it to you.

The phrase either originated in or was polularized by the film Jerry Maguire (1996), when Cuba Gooding Jr.'s character says it to Tom Cruise's character.

Grammatically, the scene is amusing because Gooding Jr. has Cruise repeat the phrase, and the imperative simply can't convert to "Show you the money!"

There is no fact about the matter of the money's being given in the context of that phrase's origin or popularization. "Show me the money" is a demand.

Gooding Jr. plays a professional football player, and Cruise his manager. Gooding Jr.'s character is telling Cruise's character to find him well-paying jobs.

"Show me the money," in the context of its origin or popularization, means show me gigs that have immensely satisfying dollar values attached to them.

@David, Moderator posted:

Hello, everyone—This is an interesting discussion. I do find the use of "the fact that" off in the definition provided. I should prefer the following revision:

• Used to tell someone to give or pay you a lot of money, rather than just talk about their giving it to you.

The phrase either originated in or was polularized by the film Jerry Maguire (1996), when Cuba Gooding Jr.'s character says it to Tom Cruise's character.

Grammatically, the scene is amusing because Gooding Jr. has Cruise repeat the phrase, and the imperative simply can't convert to "Show you the money!"

There is no fact about the matter of the money's being given in the context of that phrase's origin or popularization. "Show me the money" is a demand.

Gooding Jr. plays a professional football player, and Cruise his manager. Gooding Jr.'s character is telling Cruise's character to find him well-paying jobs.

"Show me the money," in the context of its origin or popularization, means show me gigs that have immensely satisfying dollar values attached to them.

Thank you, David. I suspect that for some speakers, especially Brits, the word "fact" has acquired a bleached meaning comparable to that of "proposition" or "statement." I don't know if this usage is region-specific.

Do you infer from the following that John is going to Boston?

Sarah didn't talk about the fact that John is going to Boston.

@raymondaliasapollyon posted:

Do you infer from the following that John is going to Boston?

Sarah didn't talk about the fact that John is going to Boston.

Hello again, Ray—Yes, I do infer from that sentence that John is going to Boston, whether "John is going to Boston" is intepreted as the present progressive with factual present-time reference (John is on his way to Boston) or as the present progressive with factual future-time reference (John will be going to Boston).