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Hello, everyone,

“A defining element of catastrophes is the magnitude of their harmful consequences. To help society prevent or mitigate damage from catastrophes, immense effort and technological sophistication are often employed to assess and communicate the size and scope of potential or actual losses. This effort assumes that people can understand the resulting numbers and act on them appropriately.

However, recent behavioural research casts doubt on this fundamental assumption. Many people do not understand large numbers. Indeed, large numbers have been found to lack meaning and to be underweighted in decisions unless they convey affect (feeling). As a result, there is a paradox that rational models of decision-making fail to represent. On the one hand, we respond strongly to aid a single individual in need. On the other hand, we often fail to prevent mass tragedies – such as genocide – or take appropriate measures to reduce potential losses from natural disasters. This might seem irrational but we think this occurs, in part, because as numbers get larger and larger, we become insensitive; numbers fail to trigger the emotion or feeling necessary to motivate action.“

I wonder if the ‘that’ in the underlined part is a conjunction leading an appositive clause, or an objective relative pronoun filling the gap – the omitted object of verb ‘represent’, while I prefer to the latter.

Would appreciate on your opinions.

* source;

https://books.google.co.kr/boo...ences%22&f=false

Last edited by deepcosmos
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@deepcosmos posted:

However, recent behavioural research casts doubt on this fundamental assumption. Many people do not understand large numbers. Indeed, large numbers have been found to lack meaning and to be underweighted in decisions unless they convey affect (feeling). As a result, there is a paradox that rational models of decision-making fail to represent. On the one hand, we respond strongly to aid a single individual in need. On the other hand, we often fail to prevent mass tragedies – such as genocide – or take appropriate measures to reduce potential losses from natural disasters. This might seem irrational but we think this occurs, in part, because as numbers get larger and larger, we become insensitive; numbers fail to trigger the emotion or feeling necessary to motivate action.“

I wonder if the ‘that’ in the underlined part is a conjunction leading an appositive clause, or an objective relative pronoun filling the gap – the omitted object of verb ‘represent’, while I prefer to the latter.

Hi, Deepcosmos,

"That" above is a relative pronoun functioning as the object of "fail to represent." Rational models of decision-making fail to represent the paradox that we respond strongly to aid a single individual in need while we often fail to prevent mass tragedies. It is here that "that" introduces an appositive clause.

Last edited by Gustavo, Co-Moderator

As a result, there is a paradoxi [that rational models of decision-making fail to represent ___ i].

"That" is not a relative pronoun but a subordinator (your conjunction) functioning as a marker. It introduces the bracketed relative clause modifying "paradox".

Note that a gap ('___') must be inserted to represent the covert presence of the relativised element which in this case is object of "represent". Since there is no relative phrase, the gap is related directly to the nominal "paradox".

Last edited by billj
@billj posted:

As a result, there is a paradoxi [that rational models of decision-making fail to represent ___ i].

"That" is not a relative pronoun but a subordinator (your conjunction) functioning as a marker. It introduces the bracketed relative clause modifying "paradox".

Hello, BillJ, thanks for your reply but I'm still confused  a little with your terminologies. Once the that above introduces the bracketed relative clause modifying "paradox", then, how couldn't this that be a relative pronoun?

@billj posted:

Note that a gap ('___') must be inserted to represent the covert presence of the relativised element which in this case is object of "represent". Since there is no relative phrase, the gap is related directly to the nominal "paradox".

Do you agree that the paradox above is functioning as an antecedent modified by the bracketed relative clause?   

Would hope to hear your kind clarification again.

Last edited by deepcosmos
@deepcosmos posted:

Hello, BillJ, thanks for your reply but I'm still confused  a little with your terminologies. Once the that above introduces the bracketed relative clause modifying "paradox", then, how couldn't this that be a relative pronoun?

Do you agree that the paradox above is functioning as an antecedent modified by the bracketed relative clause?   

There are a number of reasons why "that" does not qualify as a relative pronoun. For example, there are no that relatives matching wh relatives with a complex relative phrase, for example the guy whose turn it was is grammatical but *the guy that's turn it was is of course not.

Yes, "that" introduces the relative clause but it is not the relativised element, which is why we insert a gap ('___') in the relative clause, as I explained before. The gap is anaphoric to "paradox". Note that this is the same anaphoric gap as the one found in bare relatives The film I needed ___ is not available.

This is the same "that" as the one that introduces declarative content clauses.

Yes, the relative clause modifies "paradox".

Last edited by billj

Hi, Deepcosmos—Gustavo's and BillJ's answers agree in their essence. Setting the issue of the lexico-syntactic classification of relative-clause-introducing "that" aside, you could replace "that" with "which" here, or use a zero relative:

  • There is a paradox that these models fail to represent __.
  • There is a paradox which these models fail to represent __.
  • There is a paradox [ ] these models fail to represent __.
Last edited by David, Moderator

And how do you explain that it can be replaced by "which"?

It's not actually "replacing" it with "which", as such.

Wh relatives and that relatives are different types of relative clause, very often interchangeable, but syntactically somewhat different.

Consider this pair:

[1] This is the copy [that [___ is defective].

[2] This is the copy [which is defective].

[1] has an immediate gap while [2] has no gap. In [1] gap is anaphoric to "copy", but in [2] "which" is.

It's a free choice between [1] and [2], but as you can see they are analysed differently.

Last edited by billj
@billj posted:

Actually, they don't. Gustavo believes that relative "that" is a relative pronoun, while I say it isn't.

I realize that there was that one difference, but I regard that difference as a hairsplitting one when compared to the difference between the clause's being a relative clause and its being an appositive (or noun-complement) clause. All three of us agree that we are dealing with the former type of clause, not with the latter.

@billj posted:

This difference is fundamental to the understanding of the contrast between that relatives and wh relatives.

Do you think that that contrast, which is probably one of the most subtle and debateable contrasts in English grammar known to me, is striking enough here to be of importance? What difference does it make to meaning whether we use "that" or "which" or a zero relative in the sentence in question?

@billj posted:

It's not actually "replacing" it with "which", as such.

Wh relatives and that relatives are different types of relative clause, very often interchangeable, but syntactically somewhat different.

Consider this pair:

[1] This is the copy [that [___ is defective].

[2] This is the copy [which is defective].

[1] has an immediate gap while [2] has no gap. In [1] gap is anaphoric to "copy", but in [2] "which" is.

It's a free choice between [1] and [2], but as you can see they are analysed differently.

In the generative grammar that I learned, there is a gap in both [1] and [2]. In [1], the complementizer "that" goes unsilenced as the relative pronoun ("which") in deep structure moves to the specifier position of the CP and gets silenced. In [2], the complementizer "that" is silenced as "which" moves to the same position.

While this sort of thing is metaphysically (or metasententially) fascinating, I do not think that it makes any difference to the analysis of a sentence such as the one deepcosmos has asked about. In my ESL classes, I tell students that today's syntacticians do not analyze "that" as a relative pronoun in relative clauses, but say that we will treat it as if it were a relative pronoun.

Last edited by David, Moderator

Hi, Deepcosmos—Gustavo's and BillJ's answers agree in their essence. Setting the issue of the lexico-syntactic classification of relative-clause-introducing "that" aside, you could replace "that" with "which" here, or use a zero relative:

  • There is a paradox that these models fail to represent __.
  • There is a paradox which these models fail to represent __.
  • There is a paradox [ ] these models fail to represent __.

Thanks a lot, David, and now I'm cleared. This time I will follow you and Gustavo's parse with the view of traditional grammar.

@deepcosmos posted:

Thanks a lot, David, and now I'm cleared. This time I will follow you and Gustavo's parse with the view of traditional grammar.

Then I think you'd be wrong, I'm afraid. Be clear that "that" is not a relative pronoun but a subordinator, and it does make a difference.

If you are seriously interested in English grammar, which I think you are, you need to understand why "that" is not a relative pronoun, and the implications that has for the internal structure of relative clauses.

See my previous answers, which are 100% in accordance with current thinking.

Last edited by billj
@billj posted:

Then you'd be wrong, I'm afraid. Be clear that "that" is not a relative pronoun but a subordinator, and it does make a difference.

If you are seriously interested in English grammar, which I think you are, you need to understand why "that" is not a relative pronoun, and the implications that has for the internal structure of relative clauses.

See my previous answers, which are 100% in accordance with current thinking.

Hi, BillJ, really appreciate your comment. However, even though I tried in various ways I've been familiar with as well as with the theory of the that as a subordinator, I myself was unable to find the method to fill the gap which corresponds to the place of omitted object of the transitive verb 'represent'. When I become more familiar with the various grammar theory later, I could understand what you're trying to explain me on this thread. Meantime, once again sincerely thanks for your kind comments.

@billj posted:

There are a number of reasons why "that" does not qualify as a relative pronoun. For example, there are no that relatives matching wh relatives with a complex relative phrase, for example the guy whose turn it was is grammatical but *the guy that's turn it was is of course not.

Are you denying "that" functions as a relative pronoun because it has no posessive form?

It has occurred to me that the relative pronoun "which" doesn't have a posessive form, either. (Well, we could say its possessive form is also "whose," but is it etymologically justified?)  Do you also deny "which" is a relative pronoun?

@billj posted:

It's not actually "replacing" it with "which", as such.

Wh relatives and that relatives are different types of relative clause, very often interchangeable, but syntactically somewhat different.

Consider this pair:

[1] This is the copy [that [___ is defective].

[2] This is the copy [which is defective].

[1] has an immediate gap while [2] has no gap. In [1] gap is anaphoric to "copy", but in [2] "which" is.

It's a free choice between [1] and [2], but as you can see they are analysed differently.

Might I ask what theoretical framework you have in mind? In [1], Chomskyan generative grammar would say that one gap precedes "that," which is a complementizer, and the other gap, which is left by movement, stays in the position as you indicated. The first gap is simply an empty category, whereas the second is a trace-like element. In [2], there is still a gap, left by "which" after it undergoes Wh-movement to the Spec of the CP. (Still, there seem to be some analyses couched within that framework that treat the Wh-element as remaining in situ.)

So, in terms of the textbook account of relative clauses, you are still right that "that" is not a relative pronoun but a complementizer, despite a few technical and terminological differences. That said, we'd be interested in empirical arguments for rejecting "that" as a relative pronoun. Theoretical representations of those sentences are interesting, but are useful only when they make an empirical difference.

Some people might find dialects where both "that" and "which" occur in the same relative clause, with the latter preceding the former, as evidence for rejecting "that" as a relative pronoun. I am not sure if such dialects exist, though.

Last edited by raymondaliasapollyon

Thanks for your contributions here, Ray! The question whether "that" can be a relative pronoun is indeed a very interesting topic. BillJ, I did not mean to minimize the importance of the distinction you wish to draw in formal syntax.

I only meant to minimize its importance insofar as deepcosmos's question in this thread is concerned. He thought the NP/DP "a paradox that rational models of decision-making fail to represent" might not contain a relative clause at all!

It has occurred to me that the relative pronoun "which" doesn't have a posessive form, either. (Well, we could say its possessive form is also "whose," but is it etymologically justified?)  Do you also deny "which" is a relative pronoun?



I had exactly the same thought, Ray, when reflecting on BillJ's point that "that" lacks a "that's" possessive ("that's" only works as a contraction); the same may be said, as you say, of "which":

  • This is the car which's headlights need to be replaced.
  • This is the car whose headlights need to be replaced.

I learned two beautiful empirical arguments on this topic from the world-class syntacticians at U.C. Santa Cruz, the institution whence the almighty Geoffrey Pullum hails. The first argument is historical; the second relates to Pied Piping.

First, in Middle English, some relative clauses began with "which that" and "who that," indicating that the relative clause subordinator was perceived to exist separately from the relative pronoun and to have a separate function.

Second, Pied Piping is impossible with "that." We can't say the "the horse on that he rode" instead of "the horse on which he rode." Interestingly, it has occurred to me that this also applies to the "of"-variant of the possessive:

  • This is the car the headlights of that need to be replaced.
  • This is the car the headlights of which need to be replaced.

I shall add a third argument of my own. In recent years, it has occurred to me that the compatibility of relative-adverb relative clauses with "that"-relatives and their incompatibility with "which"-relatives shows "that" to be neutral:

  • I remember the time when we saw a rattlesnake.
  • I remember the time that we saw a rattlesnake.
  • I remember the time which we saw a rattlesnake.

Finally, during my earliest days on the Grammar Exchange, a member named Chuncan Feng asked what I still believe to be the hardest question I have ever encountered on the Grammar Exchange. He asked about these two sentences:

  • I phoned the two patients that every doctor will examine tomorrow.
  • I phoned the two patients who(m) every doctor will examine tomorrow.

Initially, I thought that all that needed to be cleared up was the "who"-"whom" distinction. It seemed to me that the versions with "whom" and "that" were equivalent in meaning. But Seiichi Myoga convinced me otherwise.

That thread single-handedly led me to study generative grammar! I had to learn why, as Seichii convinced me, it was possible for the sentence with "that" to mean, not that 2 patients were called, but 2 x (the number of doctors)!

Roughly a decade later, with a lot of generative grammar and Chomskyan theory under my belt, I believe that I am a bit closer to understanding why that meaning is (may be?) possible, but I am still not crystal clear on it!

In any case, this conundrum suggests, too, that "that" is importantly different from a relative pronoun, even in "that"-relatives. But the importance of this is relative to the case! I do not believe deepcosmos's example here to be one.

Last edited by David, Moderator

Finally, during my earliest days on the Grammar Exchange, a member named Chuncan Feng asked what I still believe to be the hardest question I have ever encountered on the Grammar Exchange. He asked about these two sentences:

  • I phoned the two patients that every doctor will examine tomorrow.
  • I phoned the two patients who(m) every doctor will examine tomorrow.

Initially, I thought that all that needed to be cleared up was the "who"-"whom" distinction. It seemed to me that the versions with "whom" and "that" were equivalent in meaning. But Seiichi Myoga convinced me otherwise.

That thread single-handedly led me to study generative grammar! I had to learn why, as Seichii convinced me, it was possible for the sentence with "that" to mean, not that 2 patients were called, but 2 x (the number of doctors)!

David, I also still remember the two members above. In one thread Betty Azar herself replied to Chuncan Feng's inquiry. I saved for my reference the same thread above by Seiichi Myoga, and  had very good impression on him/her especially with this thread about 'Subject-oriented/Object-oriented secondary predicate'; https://thegrammarexchange.inf...or-full-verb-or-both

Last edited by deepcosmos

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