to the extent where

Hi, WinD, and happy New Year.

@WinD posted:

Is "to the extent where" grammatical? [...]

For the hybrid concept to gain wide acceptance, to the extent where Honda would benefit from being the market leader, Mr. Clarida said U.S. gasoline prices would have to reach $3 or $4 a gallon, at least twice the current level. (from nytimes)

1) I wonder whether "to the extent where" is grammatical or not.(even if informally it is used by some people)

On COCA, we can find 27 occurrences of "to the extent where," and 5,842 of "to the extent that."

On reading the examples from COCA, it seems to me that, in many cases, in "to the extent where" the noun "extent" has a stronger locative meaning. Let's take a couple of examples from COCA:

-  I am startled very easily, to the extent where it is embarrassing. (This seems to indicate that the person reaches a state where he/she feels embarrassed.)

- Reducing risk to the extent where a further reduction results in a significant drop in profit is also not reasonably practicable. (... to the point/degree where ...)

Instead, the structure "to the extent that" is more clearly intensifying and, when thus used, the noun "extent" lacks the nominal autonomy it enjoys when followed by relative "where."

@WinD posted:

2) "to the extent to which" is grammatical?

Yes (there are 224 occurrences on COCA). It can be used instead of "to the extent where."

@WinD posted:

3) In "to the extent that", what can we call the "that" in terms of grammar?
conjunction which leads an appositive clause(like the "that" in  "the fact that we are to blame)? or a kind of relatives?

It is a subordinating conjunction introducing an adverbial clause of result, similar to the "that" that appears in "to such an extent that."

What follows "that" is not an appositive complement of the noun "extent."

Hi, Gustavo, happy new year and I really appreciate your reply. I have additional questions about your answer due to the lack of my understanding.

@Gustavo, Co-Moderator posted:

On COCA, we can find 27 occurrences of "to the extent where," and 5,842 of "to the extent that."

1)  Do you mean "to the extent where" is grammatical? I'm confused because there is no direct mention about "yes" or "no" and I think there are some instances where ungrammatical phrases(if they are used informally) can be found when we search COCA(are all of the sentences from COCA grammatical? I don't know about it. So far, I have thought the few number of examples on COCA could indicate ungrammaticality of the phrase involved.)

On reading the examples from COCA, it seems to me that, in many cases, in "to the extent where" the noun "extent" has a stronger locative meaning. Let's take a couple of examples from COCA:

-  I am startled very easily, to the extent where it is embarrassing. (This seems to indicate that the person reaches a state where he/she feels embarrassed.)

- Reducing risk to the extent where a further reduction results in a significant drop in profit is also not reasonably practicable. (... to the point/degree where ...)

If the "extent" in these examples has a locative meaning, can I not change "to the extent where" to "to the extent that"?

2) Or I can change them interchangeably but when I use "to the extent where" this just emphasizes the locative meaning a little more than "to the extent that"? I cannot grasp the difference between them.

Instead, the structure "to the extent that" is more clearly intensifying and, when thus used, the noun "extent" lacks the nominal autonomy it enjoys when followed by relative "where."

This part is the most bewildering part to me. Especially I cannot exactly get the meaning of "intensifying" and "nominal autonomy".

3) As to "intensifying", do you mean "to the extent that" emphasizes its own meaning?? I cannot understand what is intensified.

4) What is the meaning of "lacking the nominal autonomy"? In my head, whether the phrase is "to the extent that" or "to the extent where", extent is still a noun.

Yes (there are 224 occurrences on COCA). It can be used instead of "to the extent where."

5) Provided that "to the extent to which" is grammatical, is the "which" a relative?

It is a subordinating conjunction introducing an adverbial clause of result, similar to the "that" that appears in "to such an extent that."

What follows "that" is not an appositive complement of the noun "extent."

6) You said "that" in "to the extent that" is a subordinating conjunction. I want to know if the "that" is the same as "that" in "He'll be glad to take the toys that/which you don't want" and "the day that/when she arrived".

The reason I ask this is that if all of "to the extent that", "to the extent in which", "to the extent where" are grammatical, this reminds me of "that" can be used instead of relatives, like above.

As far as I know, "that" in these sentences is called a subordinator in the Cambridge grammar of the English language. But in A comprehensive grammar of the English language it is called a relative pronoun. So, I want to remove vagueness which results from the terms which vary depending on books.

Thank you for your kind teaching in advance.

@WinD posted:

1)  Do you mean "to the extent where" is grammatical? I'm confused because there is no direct mention about "yes" or "no" and I think there are some instances where ungrammatical phrases(if they are used informally) can be found when we search COCA(are all of the sentences from COCA grammatical? I don't know about it. So far, I have thought the few number of examples on COCA could indicate ungrammaticality of the phrase involved.)

If the "extent" in these examples has a locative meaning, can I not change "to the extent where" to "to the extent that"?

COCA is the Corpus of Contemporary American English. Most of the examples found there were written or said by educated speakers, but you may find some specimens which are informal or objectionable. I think "to the extent where" is grammatical but rather restricted in use because, for "where" to be justified, the locative meaning has to be implicit. "to the extent where" can usually be replaced with "to the extent that" without a significant change of meaning. However, there will be in my opinion a subtle change.

@WinD posted:

2) Or I can change them interchangeably but when I use "to the extent where" this just emphasizes the locative meaning a little more than "to the extent that"? I cannot grasp the difference between them.

This part is the most bewildering part to me. Especially I cannot exactly get the meaning of "intensifying" and "nominal autonomy".

3) As to "intensifying", do you mean "to the extent that" emphasizes its own meaning?? I cannot understand what is intensified.

4) What is the meaning of "lacking the nominal autonomy"? In my head, whether the phrase is "to the extent that" or "to the extent where", extent is still a noun.

My point is that "to the extent that" is like a unit, being similar to "so much that." This is what I mean by "intensifying." What is intensified is the verb in the preceding clause, for example:

-  I am startled very easily, to the extent that it is embarrassing. (This means: I am so easily startled that it is embarrassing.)

In the original example I found on COCA, "where" is used. "where" is a relative adverb, and this emphasizes the nominal nature of "extent." I know this sounds awkward, but is only intended for you to understand my point. My feeling is that with "where" the emphasis is not on the verb phrase (be startled, in this case) but on the noun: I am startled very easily, to the extent (=degree) of startlement where it feels embarrassing.

@WinD posted:

5) Provided that "to the extent to which" is grammatical, is the "which" a relative?

Yes.

@WinD posted:

6) You said "that" in "to the extent that" is a subordinating conjunction. I want to know if the "that" is the same as "that" in "He'll be glad to take the toys that/which you don't want" and "the day that/when she arrived".

The reason I ask this is that if all of "to the extent that", "to the extent in which", "to the extent where" are grammatical, this reminds me of "that" can be used instead of relatives, like above.

As far as I know, "that" in these sentences is called a subordinator in the Cambridge grammar of the English language. But in A comprehensive grammar of the English language it is called a relative pronoun. So, I want to remove vagueness which results from the terms which vary depending on books.

The two instances of "that" in bolds above are in fact relative pronouns. Instead, "that" in "to the extent that" is like the "that" that follows "so much," that is, a subordinating conjunction introducing an adverbial clause of result.

@WinD posted:

1) I wonder whether "to the extent where" is grammatical or not.(even if informally it is used by some people)
2) "to the extent to which" is grammatical?
3) In "to the extent that", what can we call the "that" in terms of grammar?
conjunction which leads an appositive clause(like the "that" in  "the fact that we are to blame)? or a kind of relatives?

Hi, WinD and Gustavo—Without entering into the maze of subtopics and sub-questions rapidly proliferating in this thread, I'd like to give my own perspective on the original questions.

I agree with Gustavo about the locative meaning contributed by "where." I view "to the extent where" as a commonly used but inferior substitute for "to the point where," which is more common.

In "to the point where," "where" may easily be analyzed as a relative adverb introducing a relative clause. I am also (tentatively) inclined to analyze "that" and "where" as introducing relative clauses in "to the extent where/that."

(a) He thought about it to the point where he became obsessed.
(b) ?? He thought about it to the extent where he became obsessed.
(c) He thought about it to the extent that he became obsessed.

I think Gustavo is right to compare the construction in (c) to "to such an extent that," which I find slightly superior. Notice that  the latter construction also accepts adjectives:

(d) He thought about it to such a great extent that he became obsessed.

It's interesting to note that the "where"-clause in (a) could be replaced by an "of"-phrase: "He thought about it to the point of obsession." This might suggest that the "where"-clause is a noun complement (appositive) clause.

However, I think that "where" may still be viewed as locative in "to the point where." Sentence (a) is saying that he thought about it to some (figurative, nonphysical) point. At that point, he became obsessed.

Hello David
Even though it is late, I really appreciate your detailed reply.