“to which vs. where”

Hi, deepcosmos,

@deepcosmos posted:

Hello, everyone!!

As far as I understand, in informal style we often use ‘where’ to introduce defining relative clauses instead of ‘at/on/in which’ only. However, I’m a little confused to have found following two contradictory answers about the usage; “to which vs. where”.

1. “The shop where he went” is OK, or you can retain the unnecessary preposition and leave off the relative pronoun: “the shop he went to”. But “the shop where he went to” is too much. – American English, retired professor (linguist)

https://english.stackexchange....03355/to-which-where

2. [Q] It's the shop ............. . [according to the meaning in 'I went in the shop yesterday.']
I wonder whether the following three made up by me are all ok?;
A. that I went to yesterday.
B. to which I went yesterday.
C. where I went yesterday.
= =
[A]
A. is ok
B. is ok, but quite formal.
C. is incorrect, but I think people do say this occasionally.

You can also hear: D. which I went to yesterday / British
https://forum.wordreference.co...which-where.1147530/

While I’m inclined to above #2, would anyone kindly clarify this grammatical usage?

Thanking for your usual hepls and RGDS,

This is just my take. Sometimes 'to which' can be replaced by 'where', but not always. From 'A comprehensive Grammar of English Language', page '442':

- I'll go where (to the places to which) they go.

You can say: 'It is the letter to which I replied.' However, you can't say 'It is the letter where I replied.'

So, it isn't a must to find only 'on, in, at which' to use 'where'. For example, sometimes you can use 'where' instead of 'from which'.

- The library is the place where (from which) I borrow books.

In 2 above, I see that option 'C' is grammatically correct. Imagine this dialogue:

A: What is 'AL'?

B: It is the shop where I went yesterday. (It is the shop I went to yesterday.)

If 2 were a cleft sentence (which needs a special context then), I'd prefer 'A'.

BTW, you say “The shop where he went to is too much." To me, it is grammatically wrong.

@ahmed_btm posted:

Sometimes 'to which' can be replaced by 'where', but not always. From 'A comprehensive Grammar of English Language', page '442':

- I'll go where (to the places to which) they go.

You can say: 'It is the letter to which I replied.' However, you can't say 'It is the letter where I replied.'

So, it isn't a must to find only 'on, in, at which' to use 'where'. For example, sometimes you can use 'where' instead of 'from which'.

- The library is the place where (from which) I borrow books.

Hi, ahmed btm, thanks for your reply.

By the way, since the natives' answers including Quirk aren't agreed in one way, is it impossible to find the general rule to cover all cases of the replacement 'preposition+which' with where, when?

Best RGDS,

Hello, Deepcosmos and Ahmed—There is a syntactic reason for the ungrammaticality or considerable badness of using "to" as a stranded preposition before the phrasal gap in relative clauses introduced by the relative adverbs "where" and "when," as in "That is the shop where I went to."

The reason is that the relative adverbs "when" and "where" have the status of prepositional phrases, just as "there" does: "I like that shop. I went there yesterday (i.e., I went to the shop yesterday)." From a historical standpoint, "where" may be said to contain the "to" all by itself, as it does in "whereto":

Quote:

". . . they had answer, that the land whereto they went, they should hold three hundred years . . ." (source).

- John Milton, The History of England (1670)

@David, Moderator posted:

Hello, Deepcosmos and Ahmed—There is a syntactic reason for the ungrammaticality or considerable badness of using "to" as a stranded preposition before the phrasal gap in relative clauses introduced by the relative adverbs "where" and "when," as in "That is the shop where I went to."

The reason is that the relative adverbs "when" and "where" have the status of prepositional phrases, just as "there" does: "I like that shop. I went there yesterday (i.e., I went to the shop yesterday)." From a historical standpoint, "where" may be said to contain the "to" all by itself, as it does in "whereto":

Quote:

". . . they had answer, that the land whereto they went, they should hold three hundred years . . ." (source).

- John Milton, The History of England (1670)

Thank you, David!!

What I really want to know is the precondition about when we can safely replace ‘the preposition+which’ by ‘where’. Viewing following examples, sometimes 'to/with which' can be smoothly replaced by 'where', but not always. Are the important factors for the precondition the character of each preposition and/or verb? Thus, I’m eager to be guided about the general and safe grammar rule to cover up all cases of the replacing 'preposition+which' by ‘where’.

1. A) It is the letter [to which] I replied. (ok)
    B) It is the letter [where] I replied. (wrong)

2. A) The car [with which] I was travelling belonged to my friend Cedric. (ok)
    B) The car [where] I was travelling belonged to my friend Cedric. (wrong)

3. A) The car [in which] I was sitting belonged to my friend Cedric. (ok)
    B) The car [where] I was sitting belonged to my friend Cedric. (ok)

Best RGDS,

@deepcosmos posted:

What I really want to know is the precondition about when we can safely replace ‘the preposition+which’ by ‘where’. Viewing following examples, sometimes 'to/with which' can be smoothly replaced by 'where', but not always. Are the important factors for the precondition the character of each preposition and/or verb? Thus, I’m eager to be guided about the general and safe grammar rule to cover up all cases of the replacing 'preposition+which' by ‘where’.

1. A) It is the letter [to which] I replied. (ok)
    B) It is the letter [where] I replied. (wrong)

2. A) The car [with which] I was travelling belonged to my friend Cedric. (ok)
    B) The car [where] I was travelling belonged to my friend Cedric. (wrong)

3. A) The car [in which] I was sitting belonged to my friend Cedric. (ok)
    B) The car [where] I was sitting belonged to my friend Cedric. (ok)

Hello again, Deepcosmos—I hereby invent the following rule:

• The relative adverbs "where" and "when" can function at the beginning of a relative clause as a substitute of a prepositional phrases consisting of a spatial or temporal preposition followed by "which" only when it is possible to replace that prepositional phrase by "there" or "then" if the relative clause is rephrased as a stand-alone independent clause.

This explains why (1B) and (2B) are wrong. Incidentally, I do dislike (3B).

(1B) I replied there. (≠ I replied to the letter.)
(2B) I was travelling there. (≠ I was travelling in the car.)

@David, Moderator posted:

Hello again, Deepcosmos—I hereby invent the following rule:

• The relative adverbs "where" and "when" can function at the beginning of a relative clause as a substitute of a prepositional phrases consisting of a spatial or temporal preposition followed by "which" only when it is possible to replace that prepositional phrase by "there" or "then" if the relative clause is rephrased as a stand-alone independent clause.

This explains why (1B) and (2B) are wrong. Incidentally, I do dislike (3B).

(1B) I replied there. (≠ I replied to the letter.)
(2B) I was travelling there. (≠ I was travelling in the car.)

Hello, David!

You're such a great inventor who deserves my sincere thanks.

Best RGDS,