Hi,
Which of the following boldfaced forms is okay?
The biggest shifts in appendage size in the more than 30 animals they looked at in the review were among some Australian parrot species, which saw/have seen/had seen their beak size increase by 4% to 10% on average since 1871.
Animals are 'shape shifting' in response to climate change | CNN
I'd appreciate your help.
Replies sorted oldest to newest
Hi, Raymond,
@raymondaliasapollyon posted:The biggest shifts in appendage size in the more than 30 animals they looked at in the review were among some Australian parrot species, which saw/have seen/had seen their beak size increase by 4% to 10% on average since 1871.
With "since," you need a perfect tense. If the review took place recently, then you should use "have seen" (the increase in size has taken place from 1871 up to now). If the review took place longer ago, then you could use "had seen" (the review revealed that the increase had taken place from 1871 until the moment when the review was conducted). However, considering that these biological changes take a very long time to occur, the present perfect seems to be the most likely option. The past perfect would only be justified as a backshifted version of the present perfect:
The biggest shifts in appendage size in the more than 30 animals they looked at in the review were among some Australian parrot species, which have seen their beak size increase by 4% to 10% on average since 1871.
The biggest shifts in appendage size in the more than 30 animals they looked at in the review were among some Australian parrot species, which (according to the study) had seen their beak size increase by 4% to 10% on average since 1871.
@Gustavo, Co-Moderator posted:Hi, Raymond,
With "since," you need a perfect tense. If the review took place recently, then you should use "have seen" (the increase in size has taken place from 1871 up to now). If the review took place longer ago, then you could use "had seen" (the review revealed that the increase had taken place from 1871 until the moment when the review was conducted). However, considering that these biological changes take a very long time to occur, the present perfect seems to be the most likely option. The past perfect would only be justified as a backshifted version of the present perfect:
The biggest shifts in appendage size in the more than 30 animals they looked at in the review were among some Australian parrot species, which have seen their beak size increase by 4% to 10% on average since 1871.
The biggest shifts in appendage size in the more than 30 animals they looked at in the review were among some Australian parrot species, which (according to the study) had seen their beak size increase by 4% to 10% on average since 1871.
Thank you, Gustavo. Somehow CNN used "saw," and some native speakers don't find the present perfect okay.
@raymondaliasapollyon posted:Somehow CNN used "saw," and some native speakers don't find the present perfect okay.
Although I still find the perfect tenses correct, it seems I have to take back what I said about "since" requiring a perfect tense. See this example I found here:
- It was the band’s first live performance since May 1990.
That would account for those native speakers finding the past simple to be the best choice.
Concerning your other examples on that other forum, I agree that, for your sentences to be correct, you should have used "be married" (an ongoing state, not a one-time event):
Joe met Sarah in 1997. They have been married since then. (Assuming they are still alive and married.)
Joe met Sarah in 1859. They had been married since then. (Assuming they are no longer alive.)
@Gustavo, Co-Moderator posted:Although I still find the perfect tenses correct, it seems I have to take back what I said about "since" requiring a perfect tense. See this example I found here:
- It was the band’s first live performance since May 1990.
That would account for those native speakers finding the past simple to be the best choice.
The example on the Cambridge Dictionary seems to illustrate a different case. I suspect that the "since May 1990" actually modifies "the band's first live performance" rather than the verb phrase beginning with "was..."
This type of since-phrase most commonly occurs with superlative adjectives or ordinal numbers. If the nominal phrase along with the since-phrase functions as a subject, we may see more clearly that it has no relation to the main-clause verb "was."
The band's first album since 2008 is going to be released next month.
So, it seems to me that the CNN sentence cannot be explained in the same way.
@Gustavo, Co-Moderator posted:Concerning your other examples on that other forum, I agree that, for your sentences to be correct, you should have used "be married" (an ongoing state, not a one-time event):
Joe met Sarah in 1997. They have been married since then. (Assuming they are still alive and married.)
Joe met Sarah in 1859. They had been married since then. (Assuming they are no longer alive.)
I have no problem with your revisions. In my thread on the other forum, I intended to compare the ungrammatical "Joe met Sarah in 1997. They have married since then" with the grammatical "We were divorced two years ago and she has since remarried."
Both have an instance of "since," but only the latter is compatible with the present perfect. That is what's puzzling me.
@raymondaliasapollyon posted:The example on the Cambridge Dictionary seems to illustrate a different case. I suspect that the "since May 1990" actually modifies "the band's first live performance" rather than the verb phrase beginning with "was..."
This type of since-phrase most commonly occurs with superlative adjectives or ordinal numbers. If the nominal phrase along with the since-phrase functions as a subject, we may see more clearly that it has no relation to the main-clause verb "was."
The band's first album since 2008 is going to be released next month.
That was a very clever observation. Thank you.
@raymondaliasapollyon posted:I have no problems with your revisions. In my thread on the other forum, I intended to compare the ungrammatical "Joe met Sarah in 1997. They have married since then" with the grammatical "We were divorced two years ago and she has since remarried."
Both have an instance of "since," but only the latter is compatible with the present perfect. That is what's puzzling me.
Now that you mention it, I have to confess I find it puzzling too! Why should the rules governing the tenses used with "since" change depending on its position within the sentence?
In any case, the original question concerning why CNN used "saw" instead of "have (or had) seen" with a "since"-adverbial still remains a mystery.
